Knowing God Pt. 3: The Union Between Father and Son
SPEAKERS
Vickie McKnight, Ray Butler, Greg Collier, Larry McKnight, Alan, Ronnie Bincer, Richard Kramer
Larry McKnight
Well, I’m excited about tonight. I’m excited about tonight because we’re going to be in in John chapter 17. Reading in and continuing to look about union. I’m going to review just a little bit and then I’m going to need somebody to read. Let’s look a little bit about our review. So, in chapter 13, this was one of the verses we highlighted. And I just wanted to point it out, again, the yellow part there, it said, Jesus knew that he was going to depart out of this world, to the Father and having loved his own, who were in the world, he loved them to the end. And, you know, we can interpret that any way we want, we have the liberty of interpreting things in whatever way. How do I want to put this because I don’t want to overstate it? The scripture can be as big or as small as we want it to be. That doesn’t mean that’s what it is. But that’s how we translate it. And I know for a long time in my life, I translated things, the smallest possible way, because it was the safest possible way, there was the least chance of me being presumptuous or overstating it or claiming that the Bible said something that it didn’t say. So, the smallest possible way that we could interpret this scripture was that having loved his own, who were in the world, he loved them to the end, would apply to the 11. You know, I think that’s too small. I think that’s too small a fact to have been included, even in the scripture by the Holy Spirit. If it doesn’t extend beyond that, especially when we get into the context of the next four chapters, then I don’t understand why it would have even been in there in the first place. So, I prefer to let this wash over me. And I encourage you to let it wash over you. And to know that this was the disposition of the affection of Jesus, for the people. And as we go along a little bit, you’re going to remember, you know, from the last couple of weeks, that all the Father has have given him and we get into that, and then the end of John 17, one of the most remarkable verses, ever, so that the same love with which you loved me, Father, would be in them and die in them. That’s pretty special. That’s pretty special, the same love. I don’t know very many people who consistently, in their Christian life, would be comfortable saying, you know, one of the things I love the most about being a Christian, is that the Father loves me, exactly like he loves Jesus. But I think that’s the truth. And I even felt like the word and I know I mentioned this last week, but I felt like Lord reinforced That, to me one day, when I said, Is that true? And he goes, of course, it’s true, I don’t have another love. I don’t have categories of love. There’s just my love. And that’s what I love with. So anyhow, that’s the starting point. And we’re going to see in a little bit and at the end of 17, that is going to be the ending point. Whoever receives or he who receives whoever I send receives me, and who receives me receives him who sent me. And this gets us into the part now, where the emphasis has been for the past two weeks. And that is the revelation out of these passages of Scripture. And what Jesus is teaching and saying about his union with the Father. And that union is, is really everything I didn’t use to understand that I used to have a picture of it in my mind. But I didn’t understand how much of everything depended on that union, and how much of everything was released because of that Union and the potential for everything to be translated even into our lives. in John 14, Thomas’s if you know me, you would have known my Father. But more than that, from now on, you already do. So, again, this is where we can choose to interpret it as smallest possible and only applying to Thomas, where we can extend it through the work that the disciples did, the apostles did in writing the Scripture, the Holy Spirit’s done, to say that this applies to you and me. And I feel like we would do a great injustice to the mission of Jesus if we try to restrict it. And if we wouldn’t put ourselves in a position. So, the knowledge of the father is the father’s intention. He’s not an enigma or a mystery hiding someplace. He wants to be known as a matter of fact; I believe that’s why he created in the first place. There’s no other real reason to explain it. He wants to be known. He was wants to share something. And the something is the union that he has with Jesus. He has seen me has seen the Father believe that I’m the Father and the Father is in me. And I noticed, I remember that, when we started this, one of the questions was why, when Jesus says this is eternal life that they would know you spent praying to his father, that they would know you the only true God and Jesus whom you sin. And it’s because they are entangled with one another, they are entwined in union and cannot be separated. And every kind of false religious notion that separates the father and the son in their hearts or in their purposes, is missing the mark, it’s off of that. Jesus said, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my Father will love him. And we will come to him and make Our abode with him. I was talking with Vicki this morning. And I asked her if she recollected anybody preaching a sermon on this. And I tried to think about it. And I, I don’t actually. Now, I know, I’ve been in some churches where expository teaching with verse by verse and probably Passover, this person did say something about it. And I’m not saying that nobody has. That’s not what I’m saying. But what I am saying is that not very many people, if you get them to talk about what it means to become a Christian and be born again, and all of this is going to say that Father God lives in me, it’s just not the way we think about it. We tend to have some ethereal concept of Jesus living in us, I think that if you have any kind of charismatic, or Pentecostal background, you’re surely going to say the Holy Spirit’s in you. But very rarely, very rarely, I think, do people think about the Father. And that’s because we approach, God, whatever, and however, in detail, we envision the Trinity and we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we approach it with distance and separation from the Father. And I think that’s what Jesus is trying to get across here that that’s not true. This is the one, “All things that I have heard from my father I have made known to you, and you didn’t choose me, I chose you and appointed you that you would go, and bear fruit and your fruit would remain so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give you.” So, you see the entanglement I mean, whatever you ask the Father, he may give it in my name, I go to the Father, I’m saying it’s, there’s a oneness here that we are engaged in. To know Jesus is to know the Father. To accept Jesus is to receive the father, to pray, in Jesus name is to be answered by the Father. Chapter 16, All things that the Father has our mind. And therefore, I said, he the Holy Spirit takes of mine and will disclose it to you. Ronnie and I had a couple conversations about where’s the Holy Spirit in this and in the Holy Spirit is in the thick of this thing. The Holy Spirit is in us. We had a study on Tuesday, some of you participated in that. And the topic of that study was the particular aspect of God is light of those four things that God is spirit, God is fire God is light, and God is love, love. And so, Holly had suggested a few weeks before when we were talking about that, it might be good for us to isolate those things and look at them in Scripture. And I’ve never heard anybody do it. So, there’s not like a book out there to show you how to do it. So, I just went through and pulled a bunch of scriptures, and some of them might have been right, some might be wrong. But anyway, the one thing that was a takeaway from this study, I think, for all of us, was, I went into it with the assumption that by taking an in depth look at God, His Spirit, I would see and understand better how God interacted with the spirit realm, how he interacted with that sort of ethereal realm, that was my expectation. But right from the get-go, what we saw, is that no, because God is spirit, that is why he interacts with the natural realm. It was stunning, guys. I mean, right from the start, think about it. In the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth, and the earth was formless and void. And darkness is upon the face of the deep in the Spirit of God hovered over the face, the waters, the Spirit of God was in any place spiritual, he was right down there, and that primordial, creative thing going on. And then it just went on and on like that, on like that the Holy Spirit. So, Moses gets credit for something that that that we debunked on Tuesday, Moses gets credit for building the tabernacle after the pattern. God showed him, but really, there was a young man, and some suggested as young as 19 or 14, oh my gosh, Bezel ell. And the Spirit filled him with the skill and the vision to do all that stuff. So, I’m not trying to take credit away from Moses, he probably deserves it. But really, there was this kid. And the Holy Spirit got right down in the middle, and with his hands and with his vision, and with his leadership, he created that vision that the tabernacle was on earth of what’s in heaven. That’s incredible. That’s right in that and we call it the nuts and bolts, the mechanics of it. And there’s just so many cases, you can’t even imagine if you go through and see what the Spirit did, or the Spirit of God did, or the Spirit of the Lord did, then you get into the New Testament. And the Spirit played the role in the natural in the visceral. That was the most fundamental thing possible. The spirit. I mean, this isn’t normally how you talk about it. But the spirit got a young girl, pregnant with the Son of God. His first visitation and the redemptive plan of Emmanuel, God with us, wasn’t orchestrating the angelic singing from the heavenly realms. It wasn’t organizing the spiritual alignment of the stars to draw the Magi from the east. It was to go in and it was to make an announcement and call this young woman to this position of honor. And then the scripture said, that even when Joseph tried to be an honorable man and put her away quietly, was planning to do so the Spirit said, No, the child that is in her is by the Holy Spirit. It’s amazing. So, then I, when I saw that it opened my eyes up to the fact that the Spirit of God is because he’s spirit, what is able to let God get in the midst of everything? Everything. Think about the gifts of the Spirit. There is the stuff that makes Christianity work out in the world. So anyway, it was pretty awesome. So that’s this one. This entanglement, the very revelation of the Father through the son, very revelation of the sun as the sun. The spirit is in on that. So, this union thing going on in the Godhead is amazing. Again, if you ask the Father for anything in my name, you see how they’re inextricable? Is that the word, they’re inseparable? You ask the Father, that you’re asking in Jesus name. And he will give it to him. For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. I’ve got a little point here, in review in just a moment. But this used to seem conditional. And I know I mentioned it last week. I don’t see it as that way now. I see it is a revelation of reality, a revelation of connection that exists between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. And then I am not alone, because the father is with me. And I’m not going to take the time to do it right now. Why do you say that he was never alone, especially on the cross? Because he’s cried out, oh, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? I want to go back to John 14. Jesus says that the words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the father abiding in me does his works. And so just the short version of that thing, when Jesus was on the cross, and he cried out, oh, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Was he crying out and a declaration of reality that only he could see? And that was that the father had turned his back on him? Or was he crying out words that revealed the work that the father was doing in him. And so that’s a teaser, if you want to go back there and hear that later. Some 22 if you look at it. So, here’s the review. Jesus was in is radically loved by his father because they are one okay. The Father’s Jesus to us and Jesus came to reveal one love for us. One love, the love that he displayed in the love that was the Father’s love. every encounter with Jesus is an encounter with our father, their one, every encounter. And I know I use this all the time, but the woman caught in adultery and presented before Jesus was a demonstration of the Father’s heart and attitude towards that woman. Irrespective of the fact that adultery is horrible, it’s destructive, and it’s a sin. And you can just see that over and over and over again. Does God like people that take advantage of other people financially? No. But he had a very warm spot in his heart, apparently, for short, little guy named Zacchaeus. We see how God sees when we look at Jesus. And when you look at how Jesus looks at you and what he’s done, when he said like to that woman, like he says to me and says to you, neither do I condemn you. That is the Father. Jesus isn’t speaking on his own initiative. That’s the Father, in the same way that the Holy Spirit doesn’t do and speak on his initiative. But he does and speaks with the Father and the Son are doing. And then Father’s love for us, is entangled in his love for Jesus. So, here’s what I mean by that. That passage there, we looked at earlier where Jesus said, because you have loved me, the father loves you. I don’t see that as conditional anymore. I see that as a manifest reality, in my life, of the entanglement and the eternal security of the love that the Father has for the Son and the Son has for the father, how else is that? What’s the magnitude of that it’s not flippant, it’s not insecure, it’s not going to fade away? As much as Jesus loves his son. I mean, his father loves his son, Jesus. That’s how much he loves you in the way that he loves. That’s how he loves you, with the love that he loves. That’s how he loves you. So how foolish is it? Having encountered and been drawn into this entanglement, this dynamic relationship? How foolish is it to ever let circumstances or feelings call into question whether he loves you or not? And yet, we do it all the time, we’re tempted to, I mean, and I know that the enemy and the devil and you know, plays a role in that kind of stuff. But just let’s settle in our hearts and keep in mind, you would no more withdraw your love from me farther than you would pull it from Jesus. And quite honestly, that’s one of the horrific things about versions of the atonement, that say that God did in fact, do that and pull his back on Jesus. He did not. He could not because they’re one. And so are we. So are we, thank God. Thank God we’re starting to understand that thank God the Holy Spirit’s reveal him in various ways and various people various places, and in in little increments in big increments. And little and big is kind of a judgment. I don’t know what’s a little to one person and big to another. I don’t know what’s little to one leader and big to another. But I just think God, that around this globe, people are coming to grips with the fact that God’s love is not a fickle thing. That it’s sincere and it’s permanent. It’s not rooted in, in the deal that is exclusively rot between me and God. It’s rooted in the deal that has existed since before the foundation of the world, called the love of the Father for the son. So, it’s pretty cool. So now, I need some somebody for John 17. Is there anybody eager to volunteer to read?
Alan
Jesus spoke the things and lifting up his eyes to heaven. He said, Father, the hour has come, glorify Your son, that the Son may glorify you, even as you gave him authority over all flesh. That to all whom you have given him. He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, but they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Larry McKnight
Okay? So here it is, the hour has come, Father, glorify Your son, that your son may glorify you. Remember, we’re talking a union and entanglement. But even Jesus doesn’t have the ability out of the ministry that he performs here on the earth, nor does he have the necessity to manufacture glory, independent, Father, glorify Your son, that your son may glorify you, we’re going to see that applied to us as we move on. And then obviously, this this idea of eternal life, this is eternal life, but they may know you the only two grand and Jesus Christ whom you sense. And then Jesus says,
Alan
I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. Now, Father, glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was,
Larry McKnight
Okay, hang on, glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was, alright. It was a revelation to Thomas. And we are making and receiving it as a revelation to ourselves, that this oneness idea that if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father, but it’s not just that if we’ve seen Jesus, we’ve seen the Father. It is that literally, since before creation ever had, there was a dynamic life, a glory that they shared, and that is what is being shared with us. That is what we witness on the cross. That is what we witnessed in the resurrection. It’s not just that, and it’s so easy to slip into this sort of theology, that God made Adam and told him how to behave. And he screwed up, even though it was only one law. And then the whole thing fell apart. And God had an emergency session among the people that Trinity’s and Trinity and some of the consulting angels and stuff, and they came up with this rescue plan. And then slowly but surely, they implemented and had several false starts, even to the point that they had to wipe the earth out with the flood. And then, you know, this happened and that happened, no, this glory. This is Plan A, the manifestation of the glory that existed, the radiance of the love and the light that that flowed between father son, that this find a home, both in the earth and that the Earth, find a home in it, and you can see it, if you look forward to Revelation, it’s not just a weird, apocalyptic vision, the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and is not illuminated, because it doesn’t need to be illuminated by sun or moon doesn’t mean there’s not a sun or moon or stars. It doesn’t say those are going away necessarily. It says that the lamb is the light that this union is, in fact, the dynamic that illuminates everything in the universe. This is the light that became the life of men. The life it became the light of men, this dynamic is the light of the world. Yes, Richard. Glory. Glory is the manifestation, the visible outward manifestation of what’s inside. What’s. In other words, Isaiah, glimpses it and gives us some words to try to make reference Now don’t be listened to. First, this is not me trying to defend my lack of being able to get a good definition. Because it’s a big topic. Don’t be afraid of glory being bigger than you can nail down. But there’s hints to it all over scripture. So, for instance, Isaiah said, Rise and shine for your life has come the glory of the Lord is risen upon So there’s a relationship there about light. There’s a relationship there about this thing, having built the weight and the shining ability to dissipate. CS Lewis described glory as something that seemed holy and wonderful, which was like godly radiance. And another thing that seemed carnal, like fame. And it was a beautiful description, because they both, they both did that kind of thing. Yes, sir. Yeah. Trying to visualize glory, I’ve always looked at it as just like fireworks and blight in not just white light, but all kinds of light. And with love flowing through that, and just things you really can’t describe. Mm hmm. I think that and then weight is associated with glory. And a lot of places in Scripture, a lot of metaphors. As I’m sitting here, right now, this is what I feel like the best image of glory in the context of this conversation is in John 17. In just moments, literally, Jesus is going to leave this place with his disciples, he’s going to walk across the Kidron Valley, he’s going to see a bunch of torches coming up to him. And there and he’s going to say, who do you seek, and they’re going to say, Jesus of Nazareth, and he’s going to go I am. And they’re going to fall down backwards. That’s glory. That’s glory Shining in the Darkness. So, it doesn’t have to have the radiance. They were the ones carrying the torch. He didn’t blow him away with a light show, the sheer weight of who he was, and the union that he stood there representing of the created order, boom, knocked him down, he had to rephrase just so they could get up and arrest him. How His eternal life related to that. Let’s keep reading this a little bit and see if there’s a place to come back and answer that.
Ronnie Bincer
In verse five, it says, Now, Father, glorify me together with yourself. That’s the first time I’ve noticed that way that it seems that there’s a different glory when Jesus and the Father are glorified together, rather than individually. So, there’s a union right there with, this is this is a request to glorify in the same way I was with you before the worlds were
Larry McKnight
Right and I would encourage us seeing as how this is a bigger topic than we can just have a pat answer to, because what we’re talking about is, we’re talking about the dynamic from which everything existed, we’re talking about the dynamic from which everything was defined. In other words, creation did not come into existence with a bunch of parameters, and a bunch of elements, and a bunch of significance that didn’t already exist in the glory that was between the Father and the Son. It is an out shining of that. One of the things that we looked at, two weeks ago on Tuesday, was we first examined, God is light. And the first time I ever really noticed this, is that at the very beginning of creation, that was what God said, light me, where that light come from, did he created an external light, or did he reveal himself as light and that got the whole ball rolling. And that’s why a combination of light and water brought forth life. Because it started with him. Really him not just the thing and so your comment, Ronnie? Yes, that glory with the Father and the Son is an eternal existence thing. And it’s only a world that fell into darkness that didn’t bask in that all the time. And so that’s what Jesus is coming down here to bring. So, Alan, start with five and keep going.
Alan
Alright, so now Father, glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was, I have manifested your name to the men who you gave me out of the world that were yours and you gave them to me,
Larry McKnight
Okay, hang on a second, just soak in that last phrase. Jesus didn’t win them. They were the fathers. He received them. God help us understand that and begin to look at the world around us in that way. I don’t fully understand how to do it. But we’re on the path to understanding that I really believe that they are the fathers. Ephesians says that he is the one the father on whom every family on heaven and earth derives its name. There is a possession, right? For the father, that was exercised and manifest in the ministry of Jesus and beyond with the apostles. In him we live and move ever be, okay keep going on. Okay?
Alan
That were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they have come to know that everything you have given me is from you for the words which you gave me, I have given to them, and they receive them and truly understood that I came forth from you. And they believe that you sent me, I act on their behalf, I do not act on behalf of the world, but on those who you have given me, for they are yours. And all things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine. And I have been glorified in them.
Larry McKnight
Okay, hang on. All things that are mine are yours. And all things that are yours are mine. This is the union; this is the entanglement. But the consequences of this entanglement impact us powerfully. Because we’re the things he’s talking about, along with the rest of creation, but we’re what he’s talking about. And so, Richard, whatever that glory is in, however it can manifest, whether it’s just the sheer weight of it, that impacted those soldiers, or whether it’s the light shining in a dark place dawning on the hearts of people, or whether it’s the awakening, or the registering of that light that was sown in us the life that is in our hearts from Christ. I think that we can, like I say, we can interpret glory as small as we want, or as big as we want. And I don’t think we can violate glory, because it’s the literal dynamic that exists eternally between the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So, I don’t know, this is some stuff to ponder about. Okay, Alan keep going, buddy.
Alan
I’m no longer in the world. And yet they themselves are in the world. And I come to you, holy Father that keep them in your name, the name which you have given me, but they may be one even as we are.
Larry McKnight
No surprise, this deep into this prayer this deep into these chapters, there’s no surprise that you and I have resource resources keeping us that are beyond our ability to understand your Christian security, your security, and this relationship is not dependent upon your stalwartness. It is the Father doing it. But here’s what snuck in here, that they may be one, even as we are. So, let me ask you a question. What do you think the odds are, that Jesus prayer, the night he was betrayed is going to be answered? I would say it’s high. And I would say it’s high. Even if you account for the other prayer that said father is there a way that this cup can pass away because he made you follow that by saying, nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done. This is what’s working on your behalf saying this, I think is what is the plan of the ages, that we can be one but not just one, in the vague sense that we understand oneness. You know, our best illustrations of oneness are probably husband and wife. Or we talk about the body of Christ in one as one and inseparable, and in a sense, indistinguishable, in purpose and in heart and intention that the Father is with a son. That is what the redemptive plan was given and designed to create between you and God. between me and him. Larry, this is bigger. Yeah, Ronnie,
Ronnie Bincer
it seems like he’s even saying that we can be one like He and the Father were one before the creation of the world
Larry McKnight
That would open a can of theological worms, but I think so. I think so. I don’t know if that means that we have that oneness, in some sense that precedes time. I know that there’s doctrines and people that think that there was a famous guy named Origen, that included that in with some other Universalist tendencies and ended up being called the heretic not for the universalism, but because of the preexistence of the soul. But you know it almost after the pattern of, in the likeness of, so for instance, what does it mean? When God said, let us make man in our image? It means that men are to be made in the image of the glory of God that existed before the worlds were made between the father son spirit, or in the spirit.
Greg Collier
Just thinking about what Ronnie just said, because I got tripped up on verse six, um, I’m reading from the CV, I guess this is good. You have given me some followers from this world. And I’ve shown them what you were like, they were yours. But you gave them to me. And they have obeyed you. So not only could we have it, this seems to be implying we already know. I know. And, yeah, it sounds like theological disaster. But it’s in the word.
Larry McKnight
It’s not only in the word, it’s revealed all throughout the heart of God. It’s all throughout the heart of God, you can jump forward. And you can see Peter being called to Cornelius his house. And before he could even get the full gospel out. This one who was the fathers was given over to the spirit. I think that’s there. All right, go again, Alan.
Alan
From verse 12. Okay, so while I was with them, I was keeping them in your name, which you have given me. And I guarded them, and not one of them perish. But the son of destruction, so that the scripture would be fulfilled. But now, I come to you. And these things I speak in the world so that they may have my joy made full in themselves, I have given them your word. And the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world, I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world, Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
Larry McKnight
All right, through this, this last verse up here in David Bailey hearts translation, as you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. For their sakes I sanctify or make myself wholly myself that they themselves may also be sanctified in truth. So, this is that part of that union that now begins to spill over to us over and over again. I send them like they sent me I’m sanctified. So, they’re sanctified.
Richard Kramer
The language of this world, I mean, it talks about there in the world, and he says they’re not of the world. I’m not in the world. I was in the world. All this world stuff is what confuses me when I’m reading this, okay. If you could help me understand what it’s talking about. I mean, it’s the, I guess, define world. Is it defining the Is it the, the religious thinking at the time, or is it the social going on?
Larry McKnight
The word used here is cosmos. And so, Cosmos includes more than just the earth. But it includes here that includes more in creation. It includes more than just the culture, but it includes that so it’s a very inclusive word. And I’m not of the cosmos. You’re not you know,
Richard Kramer
In verse 11, I am no longer in the world and yet they are they themselves are in the world. And then when we get over further, I was talking about they are no longer in the world.
Larry McKnight
You’re not of the world Yeah, not of the world.
Richard Kramer
You sent me into the world. I also have sent them into the world. Just I guess everybody else understand that. But I don’t.
Larry McKnight
No, I don’t know that. I don’t know that we understand. Anybody got a comment on it.
Alan
I did. The only thing I see is simply, we were in top two parts were in the flesh, and we’re in the spirit. So, the flesh sees of people of the world, and we have communication with the people within the world. And I believe that that’s what he’s saying is where in the world basically means we have communication with this creation, of communication. But we’re not of the world. So, in the spirit, we’re not of this world, we’re in heavenly places, we see that the right hand of the Father in Christ in heavenly places. So, there’s two places that we are we’re in the world, we walk in this world, but we’re not of this world, we’re of the kingdom of God. And we are seated in the heavenly realms because our spirit is seated, like Nancy says, that, you know, our spirit leads us if you remain and walk the walk, and then we’re walking now into the spirit more and more, and you say, wow. I think the biggest thing that’s affected me over the last nit of time, especially with my situation, is the fact that my mind is now fooled with heavenly things. And so, I walk in the heavens, however I’m in the world, and allows me to love the ones who hate me, the ones who persecute me, where if I had my mind in the world and saw the problems of this world, as Papa says, He says, Get your eyes off the storm and onto me. So, to be able to do that, where we’re in this world, we speak into this world, we speak truth in love. We speak the Father’s love, that we’re not of this world. Eternity is started. When we gave our life to Christ. We took on this new thing we’re a new creation, the old has gone. Yeah, yeah, that That, to me is the distinction between in the world and not in the world.
Larry McKnight
And I think if we, if we, so let’s embrace that as a distinction. Let’s also look at what’s not a distinction. When Jesus was asked to teach the teachers to pray, he said, pray this way that the kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it isn’t heaven. Father hallowed be your name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I think that this confusing sense is a manifestation of that happening. It is a manifestation of the kingdom coming to earth. Jesus was the first of that manifestation and he said, Father, that they may be one as we are one. That’s the defining way we’re known. And in that oneness, we like Jesus. These words are not my own. They’re the Father doing his work. We don’t believe that, because we’re Western rationalist. And we think this is just a metaphor. But what if we were to ask the Holy Spirit to begin to give us a reality? And start with the things that seem astonishing, but delightful? Like? Is it possible that I really am as one with God, as Jesus is with the Father says so like say, Greg says, So? Is it possible that I belong to God before I made a choice to accept Jesus seems to say so? But that goes against my theology? Well, why don’t you not discard your theology, but just set it aside for a while, and see if there’s not a truth, bigger than what fits in your system? And it’s not like we’re opening ourselves up to just random heresy. Because what we’re talking about is, when did the father loved me? And how does he love me? And does he have a separate kind of love that he meters out in small portions for turkeys like me? Or is it the love that he loves everything with? Is it the love He loves Jesus with? And I think that’s it. And so, the way Jesus was still fully connected to the Father and walking on this earth is being handed off to the disciples. And it is the essence of the kingdom coming on Earth.
Ronnie Bincer
It also says here that the world has hated them because they are not of the world. Right? So that’s one way to define what the world is those that hate us.
Larry McKnight
Yeah. This is an important factor. When you see that they’re not of the world. Almost Always it has to do with an EQ type of Greek word. I haven’t looked that up. So, I don’t know for sure. But that means out from a source. In other words, no lot these guys used to their source of life, wisdom, living identity used to be from the world and it isn’t anymore their mind. You gave them to me. And they know it. I’ve given them your name. And they know you sent me. So, their source is no longer the world. And so, the ones that the this the source is the world, the cosmos that the idea of out a source. That is something about this distinction. And that doesn’t mean that we’re not here, as you said, Alan, to still be able to speak into this to love it. So anyway, I don’t have a better answer, Richard. But what I what I think is, we can sit now with confidence, because we know that the Father loves us with the same love. He loves the sun. And we can say, Lord, am I? Am I out from this world? Or am I out from you? And if I’m out from the world, that’s one issue. And if I’m out from you, then that’s another issue and what’s my relationship with this world to be? And see, that doesn’t lead you back into legalism and weird stuff like that. That goes, I’m carrying a glory that has existed since before creation. What’s it like to do that? How do I do that? All right, if you can remember where we are ln, keep going.
Alan
And then there’s just one other point, when you’re saying it is verse 16 and 17. But they are not of this world even as I’m not of this world. Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is true. Separate them in the truth. Yeah, you’ll know it is true. That’s cool. Anyway, I’ll keep going from verse 20 excellent. I do not act on my behalf of these alone. But for those also, who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, even as you father are in me, and I in you, but they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.
Larry McKnight
This is Jesus praying to his father. I find no reason to believe he was exaggerating or hyperbolized. or trying to impress God, or more especially impress the disciples with flowery prayer language. I believe he was speaking, simple truth. simple truth. That they may all be one. Now it was rough the first time I read John 17. And Jesus says, I don’t pray for the world. But I pray for these guys. And thank God, we got over here to this verse 20 where it says, I’m not asking on behalf of these alone. But for those who also believe in me through their words, thank you, Jason, that they may all be one. Even as you, father, are in me and I in you. Now, if it stopped there, we could say he’s using his oneness as a metaphor for a kind of oneness that we could have. But obviously, it’s not saying because he’s gotten more finite. But that’s not what he says. He goes on to say something very plain, that they may be one even as you father are in me and I knew that they may also be in us. In US, one with one another and one with us. We need to open our hearts to the magnitude of what God has done in Christ. And I believe guys that we can. I believe this is one of those scriptures that You can interpret it as small as you would like to feel safe. But since we can’t do anything, except read this and believe it, let’s let it be as big as God wants to make it. Let’s see what it means to be one with one another and the world around us. Now there can be a qualifier there in the sense of those that believe on me through their word. And so, if you want to, if you want to limit who might be a candidate for oneness with you, like a father and son, or one, and it’s limited to people who believe I’m okay with that. Because if we just took that standard, and applied ourselves to it, we would be miles and miles ahead. Because everybody that showed a sign of belief, based on what these guys wrote in Scripture, and what the Holy Spirit bears witness to, we would realize that we’re one. We’re one. And not only one but think how this changes how you look at somebody, they also may be in us. So, the world may believe that you sent me how many of you are tired of trying to convince your loved ones and friends that you care about? that Jesus is the Savior? How about if we appeal to this oneness in this union, and then suddenly, they can see and believe the same world, Richard, that they used to be in and now they’re out of, and then he came to and now he’s leaving, that this world, this is the one that is supposed to be able to see, okay, start with the glory and keep going.
Alan
The glory which you have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one just as, we are one I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that you sent me and love them, even as you have loved me.
Larry McKnight
Alright, stop. This is another one that you can interpret big or small. Is he referring back only to the disciples? Or is he referring now to the ones that I don’t ask on behalf of these alone, but also those who believe in me through their word? I think that at the very least, that means that everybody in here, because everybody in here believed on him through their word, that that we have the glory, that God gave him back to the confusing topics of glory in this world. And it’s so that the world may know that you sent me and love them, even as you’ve loved me, keep going, buddy.
Alan
Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me, be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Larry McKnight
Big interpretation, small interpretation in my life, previous life. I assumed that Jesus was praying, and that the answer was going to come when we died and went to be with Jesus, to be absent from the bodies to be present with the Lord, I have my own biblical thing about it. But that doesn’t make very much sense. Because it’s in the very same context. He’s just talking about saying, I want them to see this oneness and know it, so they’ll know that you sent me. Nobody is going to know what happens to me after I die when I stand in the presence of the Lord and be provoked by my standing there that they can’t know or see. Nobody is going to believe that God sent him. He wants us to be with him now. Now, and there’s a lot of ways that that I think he’s willing to accommodate the answer to that prayer. I think, I think prayer, I think devotion, time with the Lord, meditation, fasting, journaling. I mean, I know he and I spend a lot of time together there. I think essentially, this trips to heaven. I think these are all real things. I believe that the Father answered the son and I think we’re just now in our lives, beginning to take advantage of this. And we need to.
Alan
Our righteous father, although the world has not known you. yet. I have known you and these have known that you sent me, and I have made your name known to them and will make it known. So that the love with which you love me, may be in them, and I in them.
Larry McKnight
All right hang on just a second on that one. Your name, I put this up under David Bentley Hart’s translation, your name I have made known to them and will make known. Baxter Kruger says something about this verse that really touches me. It changed the way I think about it. He says, when we read this, we see Jesus taking responsibility for the world that Jesus just prayed for, to know the father. I have made your name known. And I will. Now what was happening in the next few hours in Jesus life. He was going to be arrested, tried and crucified and buried. And then of course, resurrected. So, was he talking about the brief moments from when they left this place? walked across the Kidron Valley? Did the double take on I am? Or was he talking about this whole process that carried on in the book of Acts and carries on in our lives? I will make them known. A job is never been ours. It’s Jesus job in us to be with him and participate us to recognize us to honor us to say, stop for a minute and let Jesus reveal who he is in you. I will make it known. That’s why one of one of the ways that Baxter Kruger reaches out to people is he said, would you do something for me after we’re done talking? Usually, they’ve had a good conversation. They say yes. He said well, you just wait until you get someplace privately. And with a with a sincere heart. Will you ask this question? Jesus? Are you in me? And then listen for an answer. I have made your name known. And I will. I’m not suggesting that’s the only thing to say when you’re evangelizing. But I’m saying but I am suggesting that there’s a reality here a truth. What you brought up Greg. It says here that they were his, Father, am I really yours? Says the skeptic in a moment of vulnerability. One thing that I hope comes out of this for us in the next little while is I want us to be able at Joyland to preach a gospel, to share the gospel, to declare a gospel that the Holy Spirit can say amen to. And in the New Covenant. God said I will have mercy on your transgressions and your sins, I will remember no more. Therefore, a gospel that leads with a person with a call for a person to focus their attention on their sins I do not believe the Holy Spirit can say him into but a gospel that leads with a union that sin has masked and covered over and a darkness which has veiled our eyes. I believe the Holy Spirit can keep in mind. Paul says in Romans, that because and I don’t know exactly where the verses to turn to right now. But look it up if you don’t believe me, because you are sons. The spirit cries out, Abba, Father, not so that you can become sons, the spirit Christ. Because you are sons. They belong to you. And you gave them to me. This is the world. This is the truth that the world needs to have somebody speak. This is the message that needs to hit the streets in places where there’s rioting and anger and hostility and hopelessness. Because you’re a son, the spirit cries out, I’m a father. I can’t say that I’ve lived my life with a full experience of that. But I can’t say that I won’t allow myself to live any other way.
Alan
I just got way where you’re talking from it says in Galatians four. If you go back to verse four, about when the fullness of the time came. God sent forth his son born of a woman born under the law so that he might redeem those who are under the law, that we might receive the adoption of as sons, because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father, therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Larry McKnight
Amen, brother. Amen, brother. That was good. He has sent forth the Spirit of his Son, you see how this is what john saw, Jesus is praying about talking about this union, this entanglement, this, all of this is within for the disciples. He didn’t need to come here to find union with his father yet union with his father yet glory with his father forever. He came here so that glory could be put in us and we could be drawn into it. Yes, we were lost. But you know, I’ve heard someone say, and I think it’s true. You can’t be lost if you don’t belong someplace. Otherwise, you just wander. Go ahead on.
Alan
Last verse again, and I have made your name known to them. And will make it known. So that the love with which you love me, may be in them, and I in them.
Larry McKnight
Okay, this is the promise of this prayer. Think back to when, when this whole thing started in 13, Jesus says, and realizing that he was going to go be with the Father. And they’re all things were, you know, being given to him. He loved his he loved them, and he loved them to the end. This is the love. So, you’re loved, I’m loved. It is the love. The love, that is exactly the same love that the Father loves his son with. Now, how can that be? It’s hard for us to think it can be that way, because we think of that love being a projection. So, the love of God is projected to Jesus, and it’s like, almost totally inclusive. Like, is there any love that God has that he doesn’t give Jesus? No. Is there any love that he has that’s unrequited in Jesus that isn’t returned? No. And so how can he possibly love us with that same love? And the reason we ask that question is because we think of it as a projection. We think it was something shooting out from God, how many of you seen the theological illustration, like God’s up here and his love radiates down, but darkness blocks it or sin, but you know, that is Platonism that does not speak that speaks of God being out there someplace. And that love coming from a far distance and taking a few light years to get here. So, there’s all kinds of time for it to get interrupted. The reason we have a hard time understanding the simplicity of this language, is because we think in terms of separation, and projection of love. This is not about a projection of love. This is about a drawing into love. The father is loving the son with everything that he has. And the son is receiving that love and giving it back with everything that he has. There isn’t any other love leftover. We’re not living off the scraps of God’s love for his son. We are being invited into the blast of that love. The crossfire of that love. I think, Richard that’s what the glory I have given them. The glory that you gave me. The radiance of your love the radiance of our union and our oneness. I have given them that. And they have known that you sent me. And I prefer to learn that they could hear the same thing. Yes, buddy.
Ray Butler
Yeah. You know what it says in the Bible. If you abide in the word and my word abides you, you could ask anything, and you will receive it from the Father. Does that mean if you don’t abide him, you can’t, you won’t get anything from the Father if you don’t abide him?
Larry McKnight
It would be a logical conclusion. But I don’t like necessarily negating a word like that if I can help it. So, I would say, could it could the fact that we don’t abide in Jesus in His Word doesn’t abide in us, be the reason that there’s a lot of unanswered prayer? Probably. Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I’ve said. But I don’t, but I don’t think that would be the first choice of the view of that verse that I would take. I would say, if I can abide in you. Well, this says that you’re making it possible. You know, I, I will, he says, I have revealed your name, and I will. So, I think it’s possible. So yeah, I think you might be right. But I think the way to look at it is that we’ve been given this extraordinary opportunity to bind him. Yeah. Okay.
Ray Butler
Because a lot of times, if we don’t stay in his, in His Word, or whatever it is presence, you know, we can lose out on things, right?
Larry McKnight
Well, it makes sense. Because if he’s the source in the light, and we turn away, we’re going to be turning away from that source in line.
Vickie McKnight
Okay, so just kind of an out there question. But is it hard to abide in Him? And the reason I’m asking is because there are a lot of people who really do believe that, you know, it’s hard to abide in him.
Larry McKnight
Well, abide means stay put. And so, is it hard to stay put anywhere? I guess if you get happy feet, Nancy rear end, maybe? You know, I think it’s because it’s not a lifelong assignment. It’s not like you get into Jesus. This is what this whole thing is about. You get into Jesus. And now I’ve got 40 years, I got to stay there. No, this is a dynamic thing. All the time.
Vickie McKnight
Okay, because if he’s in us, isn’t there an abiding going on in us? So then, we can’t really lose abiding?
Larry McKnight
No, but we can disengage from it, I think.
Ronnie Bincer
Can I take a stab at it, Vickie, this isn’t to fully cover your question. But if we don’t think God likes us, and we don’t like God, it’s going to be a lot harder to want to abide. So, I think that aspect of it, if that can get changed in somebody, then abiding seems more natural and actually wanted.
Larry McKnight
I do want to throw one other point in and then and then we’re going to have to wrap up. Because it’s going to be on say, 30. We’re going to have a little bit of a conversation today about the nature of our gospel, is it light? Is it sufficient? Is it waiting? And one of the things that is an intrinsic part of the gospel that most of us grew up with is the assumption of separation is the default condition. And if you think that separation, if you start with separation, and you think separation is the default condition between you and God, then all of what you’re trying to do and what you learn about the gospel, and what you get in Revelation, what you see in the Scripture is a path to get back in. But if separation is not the reality, and it isn’t, I’m telling you that if separation is not the reality, then abiding isn’t this arduous task, it is recognizing that you’re in that you’re included, that you’re loved, and that you didn’t know it for a long time in your life, and that you still have the ability to revert back to feeling like, oh my gosh, I’m separated from God. Why? Because I did something so damn stupid for the 20th time. That’s why that has the power to make you think if I was God, I’d separate myself from myself. But the beauty is you’re not. It’s a lie. And if you eliminate that option, the option of separation. Greg, you saw it in their father, they were yours. And you gave them to me. And I have made your name known to them. And I will make your name known. I am committed to this and I want them to be with me where I am. And I’m going to make that possible. And Paul saw it and said you’re seated in heavenly places in Christ. And he saw it and he said that that were changed from glory to glory, as if we were looking in a mirror in the future of Christ. We’re not separated, and neither is our uncle or our antagonist. And that’s what we see here. And it’s not just some other theological view, it’s trying to wrestle with what Jesus said here. I don’t just pray for these; I pray for the ones that believe in their name that they may be one as you and I are one. There’s not a lower kind of love and there isn’t a lower kind of oneness. God made us in His image. And this is who we are, and this is what we’re for. And Jesus came and revealed it. He is the revelation of our identity. Father, thank you. I mean that what words Lord? What words can we say, to express? A stunned at sort of gratitude for the reality of what these words say. And they’re all read. In our Bibles, they’re all Jesus, revealing the truth about you and about us and about him. And about all of us together. And they’re so far beyond what we, many of us, have been led to believe that it’s, it’s, it’s requiring a shift in our thinking, but that’s what repentance is. Is it turning from one pattern of thought to another set of expectations to another set of beliefs to another? And Lord, that always involves a pathway through doubt. Could it be? Is it possible? We don’t even have ways to explain some of the questions about what do you mean, I was yours before you gave me to Jesus? I don’t know. But I know what it says. And I know what Jesus said. And I know the integrity with which he said it before you and before his disciples as he was praying. And so Father, I lay my skepticism about the glory revealed in the Scriptures, I lay them at your feet, I lay them on the sea glass before your throne and ask that they be consumed in exchange with just the tiniest fragment of faith, to believe. Help me to see the truth that Jesus spoke, as he prayed in John chapter 17. Help me to embrace it for myself, for my family, for my spouse, for my friends, and help me to embrace it for the world around me. Single out somebody among the politicians, or the neighbors, or the rioters? and show me this truth, as it applies to their life, to their heart to their soul, opened our eyes to the reality of the union between you and your son and the spirit that you have invited us into. And in fact, have drawn us into at this point. Jesus, you said that, if the center Man be lifted up, he will drag all men to himself. Show us that we have been drawn into you. And then show us the implications of that. Holy Spirit. We thank you that you will lead us into all truth and bring to remember everything that Jesus said and it. Thank you. Help us realize the truth of this in our everyday life in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Bless you guys.